Solar Power – Almost Extinct

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Solar Power – Almost Extinct

Post  Flap Zappa on Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:47 pm

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http://toryaardvark.com/2011/12/22/solar-power-almost-extinct/#comment-9916

it seems the government at last is realising that some of these feed in tariffs are making people rich but not contributing to the power generation for the country.

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Re: Solar Power – Almost Extinct

Post  Flap Zappa on Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:52 pm

just checked out solar cells and the costs and without the feed in tariffs the figures just dont add up

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generate-your-own-energy/Solar-panels-PV/Solar-Energy-Calculator

even after 25 years It would still not make back the money invested on my small uk flat

however if I could gain access to the roof and put in the 4kw system it would generate 110% of my electricity and make me £3500 over 25 years.

I am a little dubious about the amount of electricity generated considering how many overcast days a year we get.

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Re: Solar Power – Almost Extinct

Post  Hugh Jardon on Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:02 pm

In A Flap wrote:just checked out solar cells and the costs and without the feed in tariffs the figures just dont add up

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generate-your-own-energy/Solar-panels-PV/Solar-Energy-Calculator

even after 25 years It would still not make back the money invested on my small uk flat

however if I could gain access to the roof and put in the 4kw system it would generate 110% of my electricity and make me £3500 over 25 years.

I am a little dubious about the amount of electricity generated considering how many overcast days a year we get.

I looked at a 4.2Kw array for my place, at a cost of £13k.
With the FI tarriffs (as was) I expected to break even on the initial expense by year 8.
My idea was to feed in ALL the electricity produced into the grid, and buy back off the utility Co at the usual rate.
A PV installation makes good sense IF you have maxed out on all your tax free savings and can piddle away £13k over a longer term period, with a risk that your 'investment' may not recoup to the extent that you expected.
As for the weather, a 4.2Kw array would still be producing electricity (for TVs etc) at dusk.
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Re: Solar Power – Almost Extinct

Post  Flap Zappa on Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:06 pm

@Hugh Jardon wrote:
In A Flap wrote:just checked out solar cells and the costs and without the feed in tariffs the figures just dont add up

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generate-your-own-energy/Solar-panels-PV/Solar-Energy-Calculator

even after 25 years It would still not make back the money invested on my small uk flat

however if I could gain access to the roof and put in the 4kw system it would generate 110% of my electricity and make me £3500 over 25 years.

I am a little dubious about the amount of electricity generated considering how many overcast days a year we get.

I looked at a 4.2Kw array for my place, at a cost of £13k.
With the FI tarriffs (as was) I expected to break even on the initial expense by year 8.
My idea was to feed in ALL the electricity produced into the grid, and buy back off the utility Co at the usual rate.
A PV installation makes good sense IF you have maxed out on all your tax free savings and can piddle away £13k over a longer term period, with a risk that your 'investment' may not recoup to the extent that you expected.
As for the weather, a 4.2Kw array would still be producing electricity (for TVs etc) at dusk.

but the problem is that as the feed in tariff goes so does any chance of breaking even.
my place in bath gets sunlight from about first thing in the morning to last thing at night for most of the summer months, but as I would have to mount it on a wall it does not give the best results and came back with a £1500 loss over £25 for the 3kw range.
But that was with the feed in tariff being the biggest part of the income, which of course would disappear once take up becomes larger, and then breaking even becomes well nigh impossible.

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Re: Solar Power – Almost Extinct

Post  Hugh Jardon on Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:55 pm

In A Flap wrote:

but the problem is that as the feed in tariff goes so does any chance of breaking even.
my place in bath gets sunlight from about first thing in the morning to last thing at night for most of the summer months, but as I would have to mount it on a wall it does not give the best results and came back with a £1500 loss over £25 for the 3kw range.
But that was with the feed in tariff being the biggest part of the income, which of course would disappear once take up becomes larger, and then breaking even becomes well nigh impossible.

EXACTLY!!
The feed in tariffs make all the difference.
The problem with people 'renting out' their roofs to utilitity Cos, is that a 'charge' can be levied against the property- in the event of a sale.
Pls don't forget any possible maintenance costs....
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Re: Solar Power – Almost Extinct

Post  guest .. on Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:47 pm

What about air source heat pumps, no boiler needed at all!, no gas needed ever again, reneweble source in extreme and works 24/7 unlike solar panels!.

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Re: Solar Power – Almost Extinct

Post  Hugh Jardon on Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:51 pm

MTC wrote:What about air source heat pumps, no boiler needed at all!, no gas needed ever again, reneweble source in extreme and works 24/7 unlike solar panels!.

well..that's OK.
But pls don't swallow the 4:1 COP BS.

Air source heat pumps are great if you are not on the gas grid, otherwise the 'savings' will be neglible...
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Re: Solar Power – Almost Extinct

Post  scottamylola on Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:05 pm

[quote="Hugh Jardon"]

In all honestly i don't really know that much about them however i will have a look into it and get back with my thoughts......i have looked at them before for potential apartment developments and i know they work well with central CHP with large buffer tanks but thats all i know........wait out...


Last edited by scottamylola on Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Solar Power – Almost Extinct

Post  scottamylola on Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:11 pm

MTC wrote:What about air source heat pumps, no boiler needed at all!, no gas needed ever again, reneweble source in extreme and works 24/7 unlike solar panels!.

Not a great fan i think they are really just electric heating............they aren't really good for our cold winters as they have to pull alot of electricty from the grid (during winters like we had last year) which will cost you a fortune........also they are horrid to look at......my personal view
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Re: Solar Power – Almost Extinct

Post  Hugh Jardon on Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:45 pm

@scottamylola wrote:

Not a great fan i think they are really just electric heating............they aren't really good for our cold winters as they have to pull alot of electricty from the grid (during winters like we had last year) which will cost you a fortune........also they are horrid to look at......my personal view

don't forget the planning permission, the re-sizing of pipework and rads..... the noise....
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Re: Solar Power – Almost Extinct

Post  scottamylola on Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:12 am

[quote="Hugh Jardon"]

Been looking into these a bit more and yes i certainly think they could be more common in future developments which comprise of some sort of central heating/hot water systems........

They would be very good with a central CHP or Biomass on social housing types of schemes as the landlord could measure the energy usage and bill accordingly.

Also i think they would work quite well on new types of heat sources as in underground thermal heat sources.

From looking at the link i have attached they really just act as a combi boiler really........well saying that you can also have ones that just do the heating with a separate cylinder in the property which of course could be linked to solar thermal.

http://www.pottertoncommercial.co.uk/products_details.php?product=sirius_sat
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Re: Solar Power – Almost Extinct

Post  Hugh Jardon on Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:25 am

[quote="scottamylola"]

yep...
Not at all disimilar to a combi- in all reality!
The metering has been the problem- until recently.
This is a 'cottage' type of industry (yet) as each project nmay have its own demands....the industry is a long way off a standard HIU yet!

I will happily give you a bit more infor on this type of thing on a PM.
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Re: Solar Power – Almost Extinct

Post  scottamylola on Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:38 am

[quote="Hugh Jardon"]

Spot on Hugh, i will give you a shout for more details as and when, the only thing at the moment due to regs and the industry i work in which is new build it isn't a big thing.......however that is at the moment as i believe centralised systems will come into its own as things go forward...........
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Re: Solar Power – Almost Extinct

Post  Hugh Jardon on Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:02 pm

[quote="scottamylola"]

any time Sir.

Oh..check out EVOTOUCH produced (I believe) by Honeywell...it's the puppies!
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Re: Solar Power – Almost Extinct

Post  scottamylola on Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:44 am

[quote="Hugh Jardon"]

Been looking into the "heat boxes" more............it seems that not many companies are in the market on these thins.......also after looking around especially in the terms of apartments hydrolic separation is a must have and not many manufacturers have this as standard so obviously cost starts to grow with add ons from the standard box........

As life has it a company that makes these boxes has approached me to work for them (however its only a very small part of there portfolio) but since you mentioned it i have looked into things further and they do a box with separation and wireless meter readings which would be perfect for landlords and RSL's etc...........it doesn't seem a big aim for this company however like you i think these could be a winner.........if you want we could maybe get our heads together.........if you want to drop me a pm and see if we have any legs in this and maybe make some cash............
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Re: Solar Power – Almost Extinct

Post  Hugh Jardon on Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:39 am

[quote="scottamylola"]

Of course...
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Re: Solar Power – Almost Extinct

Post  Hugh Jardon on Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:48 pm

@Hugh Jardon wrote:

EXACTLY!!
The feed in tariffs make all the difference.
The problem with people 'renting out' their roofs to utilitity Cos, is that a 'charge' can be levied against the property- in the event of a sale.
Pls don't forget any possible maintenance costs....


here we go....
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Re: Solar Power – Almost Extinct

Post  guest .. on Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:13 am

Is it not the case that a (if large enough) solar panel array can charge up storage heaters in the daytime, effectivly giving people free heating, coupled with pv tubes for hot water?, also micro chp do not work if the boiler is not being used right, so how is that useful in the summer?.

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Re: Solar Power – Almost Extinct

Post  Hugh Jardon on Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:38 am

MTC wrote:Is it not the case that a (if large enough) solar panel array can charge up storage heaters in the daytime, effectivly giving people free heating, coupled with pv tubes for hot water?, also micro chp do not work if the boiler is not being used right, so how is that useful in the summer?.


M...

PV tubes would usually not be used for Hot water
PV would be for electricity, whilst a 'conventional' solar system could be used for hot water.
However, with solar heating (as opposed to PV) you do need an additional heat source (pls consider legionella etc).
As for MCHPs...yep I agree...I would treat the electrical generation as a by product.
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Re: Solar Power – Almost Extinct

Post  guest .. on Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:04 pm

PV tubes would usually not be used for Hot water

You have confused me, i thought pv tubes are always used for hot water!, and to ask again, is it possible to charge up storage heaters in the daytime with solar panels?.

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Re: Solar Power – Almost Extinct

Post  Hugh Jardon on Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:42 pm

MTC wrote:

You have confused me, i thought pv tubes are always used for hot water!, and to ask again, is it possible to charge up storage heaters in the daytime with solar panels?.


PV are photo voltaic...typically used for electrical generation.
I suppose you could use them for this...but pls consider the wattage of a water cylinder element.... or for a storage heater.
For hot water generation you would typically use a solar collector.
The very simple ones are the steel drums that you will see on the roofs of houses in Spain etc, a large cast iron radiator (painted black and filled with an anti freeze mix..glycol would do) would serve equally as well.
The heat transfer would be via a coil within a cylinder, for example.

In the UK- as the solar heat generated cannot be ensured, a secondary heat source would be used (an element or a boiler to provide back up)
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Re: Solar Power – Almost Extinct

Post  bill stickers on Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:19 pm

MTC wrote:

You have confused me
, i thought pv tubes are always used for hot water!, and to ask again, is it possible to charge up storage heaters in the daytime with solar panels?.


all this solar shit is a f**king nightmare

i got confused on the other thread as well

turns out when u put them on u dont even own them all u do is rent the roof

lol!

f**king hell talk about cash in the attic

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Re: Solar Power – Almost Extinct

Post  Hugh Jardon on Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:23 pm

@bill stickers wrote:


all this solar shit is a f**king nightmare

i got confused on the other thread as well

turns out when u put them on u dont even own them all u do is rent the roof

lol!

f**king hell talk about cash in the attic



you can buy a full installation and you own the lot.
However, a cheaper way is to allow the utility or supplier to install these on your roof... you get a bit of a kick back...they get a bigger one.
The also can and often do levy a charge on your property..

Pls see my post on 7th of Jan on this.
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Re: Solar Power – Almost Extinct

Post  bill stickers on Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:02 am

@Hugh Jardon wrote:


you can buy a full installation and you own the lot.
However, a cheaper way is to allow the utility or supplier to install these on your roof... you get a bit of a kick back...they get a bigger one.
The also can and often do levy a charge on your property..

Pls see my post on 7th of Jan on this.

ahh ok i get it


finally

lol!

ok so if u buy the system and pay for it its got fuck all to do with them and u get all the money free energy and all that shit

if u let them put it on for free

what they do is let u have the free energy

but they get the feed in tarriff thingy

but thats what fucks (Language Timothy) ur mortgage because they wont get their money back for 25 years so they own it till they get their money back scratch scratch

i think

so the best bet is to buy it and get it installed then theres no problem with anyone then and its yours

thats ok then

especially for 4 grand or so

f**king hell with the way energy prices go up every year it will pay for itself

confused
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Re: Solar Power – Almost Extinct

Post  Hugh Jardon on Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:50 am

@bill stickers wrote:

ahh ok i get it


finally

lol!

ok so if u buy the system and pay for it its got fuck all to do with them and u get all the money free energy and all that shit

if u let them put it on for free

what they do is let u have the free energy

but they get the feed in tarriff thingy

but thats what fucks (Language Timothy) ur mortgage because they wont get their money back for 25 years so they own it till they get their money back scratch scratch

i think

so the best bet is to buy it and get it installed then theres no problem with anyone then and its yours

thats ok then

especially for 4 grand or so

f**king hell with the way energy prices go up every year it will pay for itself

confused


Hurrah...

but I very much doubt that a 4.2Kw array can be installed for £4k.
however, I am happy to be told otherwise.
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Re: Solar Power – Almost Extinct

Post  Flap Zappa on Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:51 am

@Hugh Jardon wrote:
MTC wrote:

You have confused me, i thought pv tubes are always used for hot water!, and to ask again, is it possible to charge up storage heaters in the daytime with solar panels?.


PV are photo voltaic...typically used for electrical generation.
I suppose you could use them for this...but pls consider the wattage of a water cylinder element.... or for a storage heater.
For hot water generation you would typically use a solar collector.
The very simple ones are the steel drums that you will see on the roofs of houses in Spain etc, a large cast iron radiator (painted black and filled with an anti freeze mix..glycol would do) would serve equally as well.
The heat transfer would be via a coil within a cylinder, for example.

In the UK- as the solar heat generated cannot be ensured, a secondary heat source would be used (an element or a boiler to provide back up)

well solar heating is a lot simpler here.
2 tanks, one hot one cold, two panels where the water circulates and one cold water pipe inlet and one scorchingly hot water pipe outlet.
When the sun shines we have hot water in about half an hour to an hour from cold. In the winter and cloudy weather they do not work nearly as well. The water stays hot well into the night and there is more than enough to fill a jacuzzi.
We just had our panels replaced and the radiator parts cost £100, the whole system costs about £300 as a starting price but can go higher if you buy bigger tanks or fancier panels.
As a system for the UK it would be OK on sunny days but almost useless in winter and when it is cloudy. It may warm water a bit but it certainly will not make it boil.

We have been using the solar now for about a month and stop using it about november or december.
january and february have been really cold and wet this year and we have to rely on an electric shower. Now if we could get some PV panels on the roof we could generate a lot of electricity as it is sunny 10 months of the year.
I am not sure they use them much over here as I have not seen any at all. I certainly doubt there is any form of FIT.
It costs us about £100 or more a month in electric during the winter so anything to lower that cost would be good. I just heard that electricity is going up 7% this week.

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