Caesarean births ‘affecting human evolution’

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Caesarean births ‘affecting human evolution’

Post  dirge on Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:20 am

The regular use of Caesarean sections is having an impact on human evolution, say scientists. More mothers now need surgery to deliver a baby due to their narrow pelvis size, according to a study.

Researchers estimate cases where the baby cannot fit down the birth canal have increased from 30 in 1,000 in the 1960s to 36 in 1,000 births today. Historically, these genes would not have been passed from mother to child as both would have died in labour.Researchers in Austria say the trend is likely to continue, but not to the extent that non-surgical births will become obsolete.


Dr Philipp Mitteroecker, of the department of theoretical biology at the University of Vienna, said there was a long standing question in the understanding of human evolution.


“Why is the rate of birth problems, in particular what we call fetopelvic disproportion – basically that the baby doesn’t fit through the maternal birth canal – why is this rate so high?” he said.


“Without modern medical intervention such problems often were lethal and this is, from an evolutionary perspective, selection. “Women with a very narrow pelvis would not have survived birth 100 years ago. They do now and pass on their genes encoding for a narrow pelvis to their daughters.”




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SOURCE BBC NEWS

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Re: Caesarean births ‘affecting human evolution’

Post  Flap Zappa on Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:25 pm

so this affects human evolution but saving children who would not normally survive due to defects doesn't?


Last edited by Flap Zappa on Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:54 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : put in the question mark becasue didge cannot understand an implied question)

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Re: Caesarean births ‘affecting human evolution’

Post  dirge on Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:51 pm

@Flap Zappa wrote:so this affects human evolution but saving children who would not normally survive due to defects doesn't.



Where does it claim that saving children does not matter?

It has been a long standing evolutionary question why the human pelvis has not grown wider over the years.
The head of a human baby is large compared with other primates, meaning animals such as chimps can give birth relatively easily.
The researchers devised a mathematical model using data from the World Health Organization and other large birth studies.
They found opposing evolutionary forces in their theoretical study.
One is a trend towards larger newborns, which are more healthy.
However, if they grow too large, they get stuck during labour, which historically would have proved disastrous for mother and baby, and their genes would not be passed on.
"One side of this selective force - namely the trend towards smaller babies - has vanished due to Caesarean sections," said Dr Mitteroecker.
"Our intent is not to criticise medical intervention," he said. "But it's had an evolutionary effect. "


And this proves why you more than anyone require such articles to be posted in full, to prevent you looking as per usual a twat

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Re: Caesarean births ‘affecting human evolution’

Post  Flap Zappa on Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:39 pm

didge wrote:
@Flap Zappa wrote:so this affects human evolution but saving children who would not normally survive due to defects doesn't.



Where does it claim that saving children does not matter?

It has been a long standing evolutionary question why the human pelvis has not grown wider over the years.
The head of a human baby is large compared with other primates, meaning animals such as chimps can give birth relatively easily.
The researchers devised a mathematical model using data from the World Health Organization and other large birth studies.
They found opposing evolutionary forces in their theoretical study.
One is a trend towards larger newborns, which are more healthy.
However, if they grow too large, they get stuck during labour, which historically would have proved disastrous for mother and baby, and their genes would not be passed on.
"One side of this selective force - namely the trend towards smaller babies - has vanished due to Caesarean sections," said Dr Mitteroecker.
"Our intent is not to criticise medical intervention," he said. "But it's had an evolutionary effect. "


And this proves why you more than anyone require such articles to be posted in full, to prevent you looking as per usual a twat
it doesn't it is an argument that has gone on in the past.

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Re: Caesarean births ‘affecting human evolution’

Post  dirge on Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:40 pm

@Flap Zappa wrote:
it doesn't it is an argument that has gone on in the past.


You were wrong here..

That is a fact

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Re: Caesarean births ‘affecting human evolution’

Post  ALLAKAKA on Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:45 pm

 An increase by 6 in every 1,000 in over 50 years.
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Re: Caesarean births ‘affecting human evolution’

Post  Flap Zappa on Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:20 pm

didge wrote:
@Flap Zappa wrote:
it doesn't it is an argument that has gone on in the past.


You were wrong here..

That is a fact
wrong about what?

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Re: Caesarean births ‘affecting human evolution’

Post  dirge on Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:21 pm

@Flap Zappa wrote:
wrong about what?

Just about everything

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Re: Caesarean births ‘affecting human evolution’

Post  ALLAKAKA on Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:29 pm

@ALLAKAKA wrote: An increase by 6 in every 1,000 in over 50 years.
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Re: Caesarean births ‘affecting human evolution’

Post  Flix on Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:41 pm

There are various theories around this. One question is why if modern humans became as we are now around 150,000 years ago why hasn't this trait been bred out by now, if it causes so much mortality. Prior to 150,000 women were much bigger, about the size of the average male now, with hips inches larger than present day but through time their pelvises and hips have narrowed, probably its thought to enable the female to walk more easily and further than previously wide hips would comfortably allow.  There is a correlation apparently that the size of a woman's head is approximate to the pelvic opening. There's a lot more about human babies presenting face down when other apes babies face sideways for birth but I don't remember it all.

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Re: Caesarean births ‘affecting human evolution’

Post  dirge on Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:43 pm

@Flix wrote:There are various theories around this. One question is why if modern humans became as we are now around 150,000 years ago why hasn't this trait been bred out by now, if it causes so much mortality. Prior to 150,000 women were much bigger, about the size of the average male now, with hips inches larger than present day but through time their pelvises and hips have narrowed, probably its thought to enable the female to walk more easily and further than previously wide hips would comfortably allow.  There is a correlation apparently that the size of a woman's head is approximate to the pelvic opening. There's a lot more about human babies presenting face down when other apes babies face sideways for birth but I don't remember it all.


Interesting Flix, but by bigger, do you mean broader? As they certainly were not taller?
Then also humans have been growing taller and broader as well, so this needs to be factor in as well I guess.

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Re: Caesarean births ‘affecting human evolution’

Post  Flap Zappa on Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:15 am

didge wrote:
@Flap Zappa wrote:
wrong about what?

Just about everything
no that would be you.
but what am I wrong about here. Or did you actually read what I wrote for a change.

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Re: Caesarean births ‘affecting human evolution’

Post  ALLAKAKA on Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:21 am

 It's hardly WMD's.
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Re: Caesarean births ‘affecting human evolution’

Post  fatbob5 on Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:28 am

Surely it could be argued that ALL medicine affects Human Evolution
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Re: Caesarean births ‘affecting human evolution’

Post  ALLAKAKA on Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:39 am

@fatbob5 wrote:Surely it could be argued that ALL medicine affects Human Evolution




 Well Transgender surgery  certainly goes against nature.
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Re: Caesarean births ‘affecting human evolution’

Post  Flap Zappa on Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:30 am

@fatbob5 wrote:Surely it could be argued that ALL medicine affects Human Evolution
it does of course.
but maybe not in a good way.

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Re: Caesarean births ‘affecting human evolution’

Post  nicko on Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:04 pm

Wonder what Phill's on?
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Re: Caesarean births ‘affecting human evolution’

Post  dirge on Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:09 pm

@Flap Zappa wrote:
no that would be you.
but what am I wrong about here. Or did you actually read what I wrote for a change.


Incorrect again, as stated I constantly show up your lack of education and knowledge

For starters, your first post was wrong, as it does effect evolution if then genes are passed on within a child that would have normally died with defects.

Hey ho, this was just showing how we can ourselves play a hand within evolution and often for the better of humans..

This shows that bigger babies can form through cesarean and thus have for healthier babies, but even if babies are born poorly, we have the medical know how, with how to help them get better and assist them through life.

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Re: Caesarean births ‘affecting human evolution’

Post  Flap Zappa on Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:33 pm

didge wrote:
@Flap Zappa wrote:
no that would be you.
but what am I wrong about here. Or did you actually read what I wrote for a change.


Incorrect again, as stated I constantly show up your lack of education and knowledge

For starters, your first post was wrong, as it does effect evolution if then genes are passed on within a child that would have normally died with defects.

Hey ho, this was just showing how we can ourselves play a hand within evolution and often for the better of humans..

This shows that bigger babies can form through cesarean and thus have for healthier babies, but even if babies are born poorly, we have the medical know how, with how to help them get better and assist them through life.
the only thing you constantly show up is your arrogance.
My first post never said it didn't effect evolution, as I said, learn to read what people write, not what you want to think they write.

keeping alive those with defects, and by defects I mean anything that would naturally kill them before or after birth is bound to have an effect on evolution in the long term if they live long enough to breed themselves.

some genetic abnormalities may be beneficial, after all that's how we got where we are, but many are evolutionary dead ends which is why we are not surrounded by billions of species that have died out over eons.
If something is likely to kill you before, during or after birth then it probably is not good for the species as a whole.

We are in effect making our species weaker, not stronger.

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Re: Caesarean births ‘affecting human evolution’

Post  dirge on Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:01 pm

@Flap Zappa wrote:
the only thing you constantly show up is your arrogance.
My first post never said it didn't effect evolution, as I said, learn to read what people write, not what you want to think they write.

keeping alive those with defects, and by defects I mean anything that would naturally kill them before or after birth is bound to have an effect on evolution in the long term if they live long enough to breed themselves.

some genetic abnormalities may be beneficial, after all that's how we got where we are, but many are evolutionary dead ends which is why we are not surrounded by billions of species that have died out over eons.
If something is likely to kill you before, during or after birth then it probably is not good for the species as a whole.

We are in effect making our species weaker, not stronger.


Yes it did actually

You wrote the following:

"so this affects human evolution but saving children who would not normally survive due to defects doesn't. "

That is as plain as day what you were saying and I have shown it is inherently wrong as it would effect evolution through genes being passed on, as was explained by the fact more mothers now need cesarean.

We are making ourselves far stronger, by the fact we are now living so much longer than ever before

So again you keep talking even more horseshit, its getting further embarrassing

Yes I am arrogant when dealing with thick alt-right worshipers

I find it great sport, especially when they put their foots in their mouths so often as you do

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Re: Caesarean births ‘affecting human evolution’

Post  Flap Zappa on Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:53 pm

didge wrote:
@Flap Zappa wrote:
the only thing you constantly show up is your arrogance.
My first post never said it didn't effect evolution, as I said, learn to read what people write, not what you want to think they write.

keeping alive those with defects, and by defects I mean anything that would naturally kill them before or after birth is bound to have an effect on evolution in the long term if they live long enough to breed themselves.

some genetic abnormalities may be beneficial, after all that's how we got where we are, but many are evolutionary dead ends which is why we are not surrounded by billions of species that have died out over eons.
If something is likely to kill you before, during or after birth then it probably is not good for the species as a whole.

We are in effect making our species weaker, not stronger.


Yes it did actually

You wrote the following:

"so this affects human evolution but saving children who would not normally survive due to defects doesn't. "

That is as plain as day what you were saying and I have shown it is inherently wrong as it would effect evolution through genes being passed on, as was explained by the fact more mothers now need cesarean.

We are making ourselves far stronger, by the fact we are now living so much longer than ever before

So again you keep talking even more horseshit, its getting further embarrassing

Yes I am arrogant when dealing with thick alt-right worshipers

I find it great sport, especially when they put their foots in their mouths so often as you do
so you didn't understand my question then?

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Re: Caesarean births ‘affecting human evolution’

Post  dirge on Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:03 pm

@Flap Zappa wrote:
so you didn't understand my question then?


It was not a question. Even worse how you further lie and now claim it is a question.

Even as a question, it would make no sense, if you believed that genes pass on defects already, so you are definitely lying on one of these aspects  

It proves again you cannot admit when wrong

Its your forever failing

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